Imam bridges a wedding divide (From The Oxford Times)

How will we ever get any peace in this world, if the Chairman of the Muslim Education centre (Taj, a 100% progressive leader), tries his best to intergrate his society with ours. Yet Dr (sic) Ramzy of the muslim education system states that it is totally unholy and unacceptable. I suppose the doc still thinks that women should walk 5 paces behind their husband, and be treated about the same as a stray dog. Congratulations Taj you are doing more for community relations than any spin doctor could imagine.

Dr Ramzy is wise, if a bit contoversial, in these days of state engendered "diversity" piffle. Cross - cultural marriages rarely work out. How many thousands of women from Western Europe and, I wouldn't be surprised, the US, end up squawking when their Mohammedan husbands head East with the kids?

Old zimner wrote:
How will we ever get any peace in this world, if the Chairman of the Muslim Education centre (Taj, a 100% progressive leader), tries his best to intergrate his society with ours. Yet Dr (sic) Ramzy of the muslim education system states that it is totally unholy and unacceptable. I suppose the doc still thinks that women should walk 5 paces behind their husband, and be treated about the same as a stray dog. Congratulations Taj you are doing more for community relations than any spin doctor could imagine.

I always thought it was woman had to walk five paces in front of their husbands, or was that only when going through a mine field ?

I wonder how many of these coming in on tourist visas will ever leave the country

May I suggest to Old zimmer and co. that as the phoney election wars have abated (Oxford - the softest touch in the Land - remains under 'totalitarian' rule) perhaps it's time for some serious reflection on Islam?

As most people are naive and ignorant about the subject, which is quite astounding given that 3 million Muslims live in the UK, it might be as well spending a little time investigating the nature of this religion, and what it means for our future.

Make a start by trying www.CitizenWarrior.c
om.As the late great Frankie Howard might have said: you'll be amazed! And probably worried too.

I suggest zimmer should get to know Taj Hargey a little better, before he starts to sound his praises, or otherwise.
Presumably, Hojjat Ramzy is as able to expound the Quran and Hadiths as is Taj Hargey.

I cannot understand why Mrs Mcmillon travelled 1500 miles to get this special islamic marriage.I understand she was married yesterday by modest Taj did not explain to the Mcmillons that the child she conceived was illegal(outside marriage)which is completely against Islam and the holy Quran.

Islam is a fundamentally intolerant religion.

Intolerant of Muslim women marrying non- Muslim men; intolerant of Muslims choosing another faith; intolerant of other religions (no churches or temples in Saudi Arabia, despite them spending BILLIONS promoting Islam across the World, including the Muslim study centre on Marston Road...) intolerant of homosexuals...

The problem with tolerating the intolerant is that we end up being influenced then ruled by them, leading to a far less tolerant society.

The Dutch- famous for their liberalism and tolerance- have just given Geert Wilder's Freedom Party 15% of their vote and 4 out of 25 EU seats, standing on a platform of preventing Turkey's 71 million mainly Muslim inhabitants joining the EU and having the legal right to invade Western Europe.

While I respect the right of Muslims to live according to Muslim beliefs and principles in Muslim countries (although I can't imagine a single Muslim country I'd want to live in...)England is not and NEVER should be a Muslim land.

This is not 'racism' (Islam is a set of beliefs- not a 'race') nor the ridiculously named invention of 'Islamophobia') but a simple belief that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with our Western ideals of freedom, equality, liberty, tolerance and democracy. If you want to be a Muslim in England then fine- but in every region where Muslims have gathered in significant numbers they have had a large impact on other people- and this covers Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and other faiths as well.

Even the pakistanis have now realised that the Taleban are not promising a pure, simple route to paradise but stand against such evils as schools, football, barbers, music, equality for women and freedom of choice. This took a YouTube video of the local Taleban holding a young girl down and whipping her according to Sharia Law.

To those who say the Taleban are 'extremists' or (laughbaly as our own Orwellian Double Speak government put it 'Un-Islamic')I challenge anyone to know the Koran (which- as we know is the direct, unalterable and true word of God...) better than they do.

Muslim Countries and Muslim individuals have been held back by their adherence to a set of inflexible medieval beliefs which are FUNDAMENTALLY incompatible with life as we know it in England.

Muslims CHOOSING to live here need to be more tolerant, more flexible and more willing to adapt to Western norms and values- if not- they should spare us and themselves further unhappiness and book a flight to Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Egypt, The Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia or Pakistan where those norms and values hold sway.

DanOxford wrote:
Islam is a fundamentally intolerant religion. Intolerant of Muslim women marrying non- Muslim men; intolerant of Muslims choosing another faith; intolerant of other religions (no churches or temples in Saudi Arabia, despite them spending BILLIONS promoting Islam across the World, including the Muslim study centre on Marston Road...) intolerant of homosexuals... The problem with tolerating the intolerant is that we end up being influenced then ruled by them, leading to a far less tolerant society. The Dutch- famous for their liberalism and tolerance- have just given Geert Wilder's Freedom Party 15% of their vote and 4 out of 25 EU seats, standing on a platform of preventing Turkey's 71 million mainly Muslim inhabitants joining the EU and having the legal right to invade Western Europe. While I respect the right of Muslims to live according to Muslim beliefs and principles in Muslim countries (although I can't imagine a single Muslim country I'd want to live in...)England is not and NEVER should be a Muslim land. This is not 'racism' (Islam is a set of beliefs- not a 'race') nor the ridiculously named invention of 'Islamophobia') but a simple belief that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with our Western ideals of freedom, equality, liberty, tolerance and democracy. If you want to be a Muslim in England then fine- but in every region where Muslims have gathered in significant numbers they have had a large impact on other people- and this covers Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and other faiths as well. Even the pakistanis have now realised that the Taleban are not promising a pure, simple route to paradise but stand against such evils as schools, football, barbers, music, equality for women and freedom of choice. This took a YouTube video of the local Taleban holding a young girl down and whipping her according to Sharia Law. To those who say the Taleban are 'extremists' or (laughbaly as our own Orwellian Double Speak government put it 'Un-Islamic')I challenge anyone to know the Koran (which- as we know is the direct, unalterable and true word of God...) better than they do. Muslim Countries and Muslim individuals have been held back by their adherence to a set of inflexible medieval beliefs which are FUNDAMENTALLY incompatible with life as we know it in England. Muslims CHOOSING to live here need to be more tolerant, more flexible and more willing to adapt to Western norms and values- if not- they should spare us and themselves further unhappiness and book a flight to Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Egypt, The Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia or Pakistan where those norms and values hold sway.

Dan, if you ever stood for election I'd vote for you! Your arguments are very coherent and factual. It's such a pity that critiscm of Islam is seen as racist! I sincerely believe we would face a civil war here in the UK if ever Islam got too powerful.

Tag Hargey is about muslim as Richard 'Lionheart'!!

He runs nothing but a cult, which cook up ever increasingly pathetic rituals!

first they performed their prays ebhind a lady and now this. No skin of my nose, but if it aint allowed in your religon son then it aint allowed.

Well said Old zimner (never thought I'd say that!)

"Islam is a fundamentally intolerant religion."

Sounds like you'd fit in Dan, though you're quite right, don't tolerate the intolerant! I jest, even the BNP have a right to think and opine.

The Taleb are a tribal nation; Taleban is the plural form. If you discriminate against them on grounds of race, that is racism. If you do so because they are Islamic (with cultural adaptations), you're breaking the same law(s), even if the "ism" word is a bit of a mouthful.

Why so bitterly fearful? Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same God*, they just use different names, styles of worship, and different descriptions of Jesus. Their fundamental principles are the same. They are equally broad in their spiritual debate, complex in their internal politics, and variable in the moderation or zealousness of their adherents. They often use the same scriptural texts.

Among others, the justified criticism that some of the hadiths are irrelevant in the modern world is being addressed by Turkish mosques.

Yes, this is England, and immigrants should compromise to our ways when necessary, enriching our society in the process. Our values and rights have been hard won over more than the last thousand years - so let's do them in our turn, and be tolerant, hospitable, considerate, dignified and modest.

And let's be realistic, England has changed in EVERY way in the last 40 years, it's not just loose immigration criteria.

*The God of Abraham / Ibrahim. There are a lot of rumours about him, but few hard facts in life. Eventually every one of us will learn the truth...!

Dr Hargey said: “We have a social timebomb with Muslim women getting better educated than their male counterparts and becoming lawyers and doctors while the men are taxi drivers — the average woman is not going to find her partner from taxi-driving.”

The more I read the above the more I cringe at your complete ignorance!
How can you tar a whole community and assume the females will be academically gifted and the males all taxi drivers!
This complete utter garbage even seems odd coming from a ignorant man as you!

P.s Please send me an invite when you next perform a ceremony for homosexuals!

I really feel pity for people who use,redicule or hate Islam or Muslims just because, it doesn't match or is not compatible to their religion and life style. Since when religion has abide the normal rules or regulation of an english/british socitey?

If a Muslim doesn't follow his religion and drinks and party with u lads, then u may (and Thats a BIG "MAY") tolerate him as one of the lads but hand on your heart, how many of you are comfortable with socialising with an Asian and specially with a muslim on more family 2 family terms?

So you think, Islam is intolerant of other religions?

Being a Muslim we have to believe that Jesus is the prophet of the GOD.

Muslims are required to pray every day (so are christian and jews required to go to their church etc on a daily basis but you guys don't!) So if Muslim goes to Mosque then he is a "Fundamentalist"

Muslims are by religion required to pay part of their income to poor each year (and this is an obligation on every muslim)

According to Islam and I Quote, Quran, "If some one kills a human, its like as if he has killed all the humankind"

A Person who is involved in the unforgivable sins like Murder,Rape will not be forgiven on the day of Judgement.

I am not some "Mulla" to defend Islam but I know that Islam religion and Muslims are not against the west or in anyway a threat to Western socitey but before blaming Pakistan or afghanistan, I may ask you, why did u attack Iraq?
I can hear people talking about Dictator Saddam who was involved in Gassing KURDS?? So why did u not attack Zambwawe? Bosnia? Israel? Kashmir? Why did Tony Blair and Bush supported President Mussharaf? Another Dictator like robert Mugabay and others?
Did you actually find weapons of mass Humilation in Iraq? then why the fcuk these american troops are still in Iraq?

Who are talibaans? These are afghanis who were supported, trained and provided with $$$$ by Americans, british and rest of the European countries to "Fight" your war against russians! Anglo-American accord was too scared of russians and they wanted to make sure that afghanis (mainly the Pukhtoon nation who are the arrior type and are mainly based in the northern areas of pakistan and southern afghanistan) After 9/11 the americans attacked afghanistan (Though, there was not 1 single Pakistani or Afghani or even a Iraqi in that attack! But even then Anglo-american Govt thought it was important to demolish the remaining structure of this God forsaken land which is under war for last 2 decade)

So who is Osama bin laden? The crook who was trained and supported by America untill the 9/11? What a joke and sorry state of affairs in this so called educated socitey! And then you guys talk about, why pakistanis specially Pakhtoons hate west? So what do you expect them to do? Love you for bombing them? or sending Drones?

These pukhtoon were used by Pakistan army, CIA , and MI6 against russia and then disposed like toilet papers..

So the bottom line is that, its not Islam who is intolerant but its your so called socitey who is intolerant of others specially of Islam cuz we follow our faith which perhaps taunt your dying belief on your faith.

As regards to the above topic, this oxfordian Imam is not actually a imam but a piece of **** like Salman Rushdi who gets the media attention and fame after defamation of their respective religion. Anyways, for a person like me, they are not even Muslims!

Dr Hargey,
Are you really a doctor?

Khan Sahib you are as white as I am.

What a loathsome tactic.

What was so loathsome about what khan said?

Seemed perfectly valid points to me!

Sahib Khan-

'Since when religion has abide the normal rules or regulation of an english/british socitey?'

Society depends upon everyone following certain agreed 'rules'- be they 'laws' or behaviour.

If the majority of people do not agree with these norms, the way to change it is through democratic representation (agreed the British political system has largely failed in this regard- for example- 80% of he British public oppose current levels of immigration, and yet our ruling elite brand us as 'racist' for saying so, and refuse to address the issue, then wring their hands and tell us off when people legitimately vote for the BNP who DO tackle the issue head on)

What we CANNOT have, is a section of society following different laws and norms WHERE THEY CONFLICT WITH THE MAINSTREAM. For example- we camnot have Sharia Law applying to Muslims if it conflicts with British law.

If sufficient people voted for Sharia law (and then to abolish democracy…) we would have to adhere to that majority decision. As I do not want to live under Sharia law, I oppose the Islamification of England, and oppose any plans that could or would lead to greater Muslim influence (for example- Turkey’s 71 million inhabitants having the right to live and vote in the UK should Turkey join the EU). I respect the right of Muslims to live in existing Islamic countries under Sharia, and could choose to move to one of those countries should I wish to do so.

A further issue is that, if you believe in the universality of certain human rights and freedoms, it is not enough to just say ‘they do things differently s who are we to judge?’ While I respect the right of people to live under Islamic law, I completely reject the right of those ruling those Countries to stone homosexuals to death, beat adulterers, amputate the limbs of thieves and treat women as second class citizens.

In this Country, Social Services have (allegedly) in some cases allowed children from ethnic minority families to endure far more physical abuse than in white British families in the misguided belief that other cultures are just more forceful in disciplining children and we should respect that. This is due to the fear that to stand up for universal standards is to invite Politically Correct shrieks of ‘intolerance’ and ‘racism!’

As for ‘us’ attacking Iraq, ‘we’ were never given a choice. The truth is that Tony Blair was a closet religious nutter who saw himself as a ‘crusader’ and brushed aside objections to the war n Iraq because ‘God told him to do it’. Blair’s religious zeal was not revealed while in office (Alisdair Cambell’s famous reply: ‘we don’t do God’) because they new the moderate British public would quite reasonably not want someone in charge of the Country who based their decisions on a fairy tale and trying to please an imaginary friend.

The war in Iraq may have been for the wrong reasons, but let’s not forget that Saddam was a totalitarian genocidal dictator who killed countless Muslims, as did the Taleban.

Interestingly, the BNP position is that the UK should not get involved in Countries where the UK’s interests are not directly threatened, so they would not have gone to war against Muslims in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Also interestingly, BNP support is not affected by large influxes of Indian or Chinese immigrants, but increases in Muslim areas. One has to ask oneself why as it shows that the British people are therefore not as ‘intolerant’ of some ethnic or religious groups as others.

It is also untrue to say that a Muslim must defy his religion and drink alcohol to be ‘accepted’.

Obviously (until recently when NuLabour’s neo- puritans did their best to destroy the pub industry) England was a land where people socialised and made decisions over alcohol in pubs. Clearly anyone (regardless of religion or colour) who doesn’t socialise in this way is at a disadvantage, but the same could be said for someone who doesn’t play Golf. It is not skin colour that is the issue, as I have had drinks with Sikh friends in the pub, nor being teetotal (as I have sat in the pub with teetotal white friends) but much deeper attitudes inherent in Islam that cause problems fitting in with English society.

Unlike David Cameron, I still maintain that Muslims must fit in with the British mainstream, not the other way round.

Dan of Oxford, I think you are straying of the point here.
The point is whether it is acceptable to marry outside your religon.
If it is permitted in Christianity, (the original version, not altered versions by succesive Monarchs to suite their personal needs)then fine, if not then its not! Same with other religons such as sikhs, jews, hindus, muslims and so on.
Its how one sees their faith personally, nothing to do with involving anybody else.
If the christian half of the above union is positive that what he is going into fits in with his religous beliefs then fine, hope he is right. Like wise if the muslim lady is happy this is acceptable with her Islamic beliefs then she has nothing to fear.
However what annoys me is people of any faith, chopping and changing wholsesale parts of their religon, just because they believe times have moved on.
If homosexuality was acceptable in christianity then Jesus (pbuh) would have stated as such, as with other faiths.
Do as you see fit with what ever that may be, but do not try fooling believers of a religon into mis-believing fiction as fact, its offensive.

In the above case, obiding by religous laws does not seem to be the goal, as both have sinned as they are expecting out of wedlock! it seems to be an oppurtunity for the North Oxford cult leader to get one up on the mainstream muslim majority, I pitty him!

His points were getting rabid. That, and another detail, lead me to suspect that he is an imposter trying to discredit a stereotype, and that is Loathsome.

Tom- I too oppose religious moderates, but only in as much as they merely serve to mask the true intolerance and barbarity central to most religions (even the more 'cuddly' ones where caste systems stratify people, and even in Buddhism where in some cases the 'karma' argument is used to deny help to the disabled or vulnerable because to do so would be to interfere with their 'karmic' penance and thus future betterment in another life)but if religious moderation results in the jovial and fairly harmless C of E vicar with his cucumber sandwiches and 'metaphorical' interpretation of The Bible, then that is infinitely preferable to a radical Imam, fire and brimstone Christian or witchcraft- accomodating African minister.

My point is that Islam is PARTICULARLY intolerant and causes much suffering- particularly to Muslims.

If a woman is born to Muslim parents (As Richard Dawkins pointed out- there is no such thing as a 'Muslim' or 'Christian' child)and chooses not to marry a Muslim man, she neither has the choice to retain her faith and marry outside her faith, nor to renounce her faith as in Islam, apostacy is punishable by death at worst and social ostracism and severance from family most commonly.

I would like to feel that if I had a daughter who fell in love with someone, I would give her my blessing regardless of their colour, religion, nationality or beliefs- even if I did not agree with them.

What I hope I would not do is impose huge guilt on her, drive her out of the family and community, beat or kill her for 'shaming' my family, or stone her to death.

The above muslim lady is in a loving caring relationship with a non muslim! They are expecting a child together. Do you really truley believe she is particulary bothered by being accepted by her parents, family or a faith.
This is exactly my point. If Islam is so negative, barbaric or backward, what is her need for all this??? None, why not carry on leading the happy life which clearly she already leads? Or will he cult leader now say he is the first to have worked out that Islam condones sex out of marriage and having children out of wedlock!
Trust me, this is all a load of b*******t. The only person to gain from all this is Hargey, who is on his own personal crusade to leave a legacy.

So far as I am aware, there is no condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament, and the condemnation in the Old Testament is of certain physical acts, regardless of gender. One has to ask who actually wrote it, only Moses claimed to be relaying the direct word of God (?) The religious justification of homophobia is scurrilous in my view, it is usually more about a person's cultural origins.

But, as you say TD, monarchs, popes, imams, etc are inclined to tamper to suit themselves or their era. During history this has lead to some odd and/or expedient hadiths, which the Turks are currently reviewing. The various branches of christianity disagree on the date of Easter.

Over time word meanings and usages change,
editions change, testimonies blur, comprehensions and perpectives change.
It seems right to me that there is an on-going discussion.

It also seems to me that the goal is not to abide by religious law, but to enact spiritual principle. The religious messages are fairly simple, it doesn't take a genius to live with good heart. (Takes a bit of effort though!!)

I am certain God would be pleased should the bells and prayers unite to celebrate both Mohammed and Jesus, in Jerusalem, in Mecca, in The City of Three Cultures, or in England's green and pleasant land. I can't see why people should not want this.

And as far as I can tell, Hargey and the couple in question clearly want sex and children WITHIN marriage, but without compromising their slightly different faiths.

It is not the church or the mosque who gave us our souls, but God.

Oh, I must have read it wrong then, I thought she was already expecting???...did that happen within or out of wedlock?

"The pair had a civil wedding in Oslo last July, but wanted a Muslim marriage contract and the blessing of Allah on their union."

A civil wedding and a separate blessing are also done in christianity.

Well unfortunatly doing it in this order is not permitted in Islam.
Now my point again, Hargey would have us all believe he has found new and exciting rules/laws within Islam, which aparantly were missed by billions of muslims and millions of Islamic scholars before him! These amazing laws were not realised in the grand huge Islamic institutes around the world and home of Islam, but he happened to stumble across them sitting in the bar having a pint on a Sunday evening! I dont think so pal.
I can not think of any religon where it is allowed to have a civil marriage, live as man and wife and then go for the holy option! If it is not a problem to this couple then why this big show? for what?
I highly doubt God will say 'yep this is what my holy religons were about, do your deeds then down the road come along and get blessed'! It aint about Islam needs to fit into British society as this case has nothing to do with either.
Just like if you choose to live in Britain, you must follow its laws and rules, absolutely. Similarily if you CHOOSE to follow Islam or any other religon then you follow it absolutely too. Do not try to bend laws of the land or religon to meet your own needs. Thats my argument!

According to you. As you know, hadiths are analyses and interpretations of the koran. Hargey has not invented something, he has reached an erudite conclusion. Perhaps you could give me the chapter and verse where his conclusions are explicitly forbidden?

The civil wedding is required by the secular law. The religious ceremony is a blessing. The Church of England do both at the same time.

Why do you begrudge these people their happiness? They are only trying to be virtuous.

Only converts CHOOSE Islam. Religions do not deal in mathematical certainties. They do not and should not stand still.

It is about God's love and mercy for mankind, not the piety of the church or mosque.

I just think that nobody knows for sure, but we will all find out one day. In the meantime it is not worth getting too upset about it - that CAN'T be God's will, surely!