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Judicial review: Oxford bus gate signs 'too confusing' (From The Oxford Times)
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Judicial review: Oxford bus gate signs 'too confusing'
7:38pm Tuesday 9th March 2010
COUNTY council bosses were accused of putting up “confusing” and “ambiguous” road signs yesterday during a judicial review over the legality of Oxford’s bus gate.
Oxfordshire County Council has been told by the traffic Penalty Tribunal that it incorrectly fined motorists for driving through a section of High Street.
The tribunal, which deals with drivers’ appeals against tickets, said the county was wrong because it accused motorists of entering a bus lane when it was not actually a bus lane.
Yesterday, the dispute came before Birmingham Civil Justice Centre.
During the hearing Ian Rogers, representing the TPT, said the council had put up incorrect signs to indicate that people were driving in a bus lane.
The council had put up a red and white sign featuring a car and a motorbike banning them from driving through the bus gate between 7am and 6.30pm and issued fines to motorists contravening the ban.
However, Mr Rogers said: “It is the wrong sign for a bus lane.
“If it isn’t a bus lane, then it can’t be enforced as a civic penalty. It’s as simple as that.”
He said the council should have put up a blue sign with a white bus, following nationally recognised guidance to indicate bus lanes, and put markings on the road.
He added that adjudicators for the tribunal had ruled that “a contravention did not occur because the signs that had been used did not give adequate notice of the effect of the traffic order”.
The bus gate was introduced by the council to reduce traffic congestion in the city centre in April 2007. It collected £1.35m in fines between April 2007 and March 2009.
Seventy motorists have appealed against their fines.
Timothy Straker, representing the county council, argued drivers had received adequate warning that they were entering a prohibited area as four traffic signs could be seen en route to the bus gate.
He added that cobbles had been laid in the road and U-turn signs put up to give further warning to drivers.
However, Mr Rogers maintained the signs were “highly ambiguous”.
Justice Jack Beatson said he would make a decision on the legality of the bus gate at a later date.
cwalker@oxfordmail.co.uk
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Your Say YourOxford
Pierre My, East Of Green Road says...
8:46am Wed 10 Mar 10
FTaylor, Oxford says...
11:51am Wed 10 Mar 10
Oxford resident, Oxford says...
12:33pm Wed 10 Mar 10
PaulSte, Oxford says...
2:11pm Wed 10 Mar 10
Oxford resident wrote:either I have misread this or the judge has not yet given his verdict (last paragraph). If it is the second of those - you are jumping the gun to have your daily dig at one of the local public organisations.
The County Council's incompetence would be astonishing if it hadn't already made so many stupid decisions about the county's traffic. The councillors and their traffic department are costing us huge amounts of money with their bungling. Time to get rid of the whole sorry crowd.
Massy, Oxford says...
11:01pm Wed 10 Mar 10
Pierre My, East Of Green Road says...
6:55am Thu 11 Mar 10
Massy wrote:read the story mate, drivers are being fined for driving in a BUS LANE, not through a bus gate.
"a red and white sign featuring a car and a motorbike banning them from driving through the bus gate between 7am and 6.30pm". How much clearer does it need to be...?
lucky1, combe says...
1:31pm Thu 11 Mar 10
Massy wrote:Totally agree with you Massy. Maybe the council could put up flashing lights advising the motorists of the restrictions ahead (maybe this might get their attention). If the signs are not clear enough for the people who contravene the bus lane then may be they all need to go to specsavers! Because how much clearer can it be
"a red and white sign featuring a car and a motorbike banning them from driving through the bus gate between 7am and 6.30pm". How much clearer does it need to be...?
Smithy1990, says...
2:15pm Thu 11 Mar 10
Drivers need to know signs that are featured in the highway code to be on the road surely?? And this sign is telling you of a prohibition - no motor vehicles!! Meaning do not proceed ahead if you are a motor vehicle!
If people find this confusing they should not be on the road, its that simple really.
123davey, Oxford says...
3:20pm Thu 11 Mar 10
saysme, Oxford says...
4:45pm Thu 11 Mar 10
Pierre My, East Of Green Road says...
11:02pm Thu 11 Mar 10
saysme wrote:When we drivers win, I hope you will be eating humble pie, I have 15 tickets riding on this, and as I never drove along a bus lane I and my fellow drivers will win. The question is not ignoring the No Motor Vehicle sign, But the law that we have been charged with. If you punched somebody in the face, but was charged wirh murder I am sure that you would appeal, as it was the wrong offence you were charged with, the same goes here. READ the story again and you might understand the argument. It is NOT about ignoring the SIGN, but about the council fu(king up yet again. The 50 mph coyuldn't be enforced on the Eastern Bypass for 4 months because the signs were wrong, the 20 mph in the East side of the city couldn't be enforced for 2 months because the council left a 30 MPH sign on the Cowley Rd, and not enough signs on Morrell Ave. These people get enough of our money to act in a professional manner, and when they do not as in this case they should put their hands up and say sorry we were wrong, NOT waste even more of our money trying to squirm out of their little holes.
Got to agree, it couldn't be any clearer that you can't go through, I can't believe anyone has the gaul for challenging that they didn't know they weren't allowed through it. Having looked on the internet in law a bus lane is described as an area of road reserved for buses. That would seem to fit the description of the bus gate without any problems so not sure Pierre's statement holds. Can only see that all this challenging of it will only lead to the centre of Oxford being obliterated with signs just so that the incredibly stupid are aware that they can't go through.
saysme, Oxford says...
12:28am Fri 12 Mar 10
Pierre if you went through there thinking it was perfectly ok then you deserve everyone of those 15 tickets, and I thank you for helping to support my Council Tax. Its quite clearly narrowed down with signs saying No Access (the flying motorbike sign) except local buses. How can that not show its a bus lane or indeed that you aren't allowed through there. Also after the first ticket did you not think something was wrong?
I think it's you who should read the story again, the Council have been ACCUSED of signing incorrectly, isn't this the same old story that was trawled out last year. The Council has not been found guilty of anything (the judge will decide at a later date) and I would suggest that know one on here knows the facts, but you certainly seem to be jumping to convenient conclusions as you always seem to do.
I get so annoyed at people who know they have done something wrong and try and squirm out of it by trying to find some loophole. To use your argument, if I had been punched in the face I would expect to be punished for it, not try to weasel my way out of it. The difference between you and I is that I want to live in a moral society rather than one that it is controlled by lawyers having to protect everyone from parasites chancing their arm.
I only hope that the Council win and benefit from the windfall you will be providing :-)
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phantom flan flinger, tiswas says...
10:26am Sat 13 Mar 10
Whitto, Oxford says...
11:16pm Sat 13 Mar 10
Whitto, Oxford says...
11:20pm Sat 13 Mar 10
Pierre My, East Of Green Road says...
8:35am Mon 15 Mar 10
Whitto wrote:This was reported a long time ago, and a friend of mine had sucessfully appealed. But the biggest joke has to be the fact that for the first 7 years of the bus gate it couldn't be enforced at all.
Also Pierre, why did you ignore the no motor vehicle sign, without knowing what law you later be fined under?
Pierre My, East Of Green Road says...
8:37am Mon 15 Mar 10
phantom flan flinger wrote:At last somebody who has read and understood the story. Well done young man.
if people understood the signage or not is not the point. The council fined people incorrectly for driving in a bus lane. It is not a bus lane because there is no signage to say it's a bus lane.
saysme, Oxford says...
9:26am Mon 15 Mar 10
Pierre My wrote:No Pierre, its somebody who has read and MISunderstood the story. Which part of the judge will decide at a later date is not clear. Until then we don't know whether the council have been anything incorrectly or not.
phantom flan flinger wrote: if people understood the signage or not is not the point. The council fined people incorrectly for driving in a bus lane. It is not a bus lane because there is no signage to say it's a bus lane.At last somebody who has read and understood the story. Well done young man.
As for not being able to enforce it for 7 years, my recollection was that it was able to be enforced by the police but the Council took it on because it was understandably not a high priority for the Police. In fact I suspect the police could still enforce it whether the Council lose this or not because the "No Access" sign is still illegal to go through. Should they lose it I hope they pass the CCTV footage onto the Police so that you can be prosecuted under the correct legislation and the resultant points on your license.
Your response is all that is wrong with this country, in that you knew you weren't supposed to go through there but because you thought you could get away with it you decided you had the right.
Pierre My, East Of Green Road says...
10:33am Mon 15 Mar 10
saysme wrote:When the Bus gate (around 2000) was installed the council installed cameras to nick drivers going through the gate, but it was quickly discovered that the legislation to enforce by the use of cameras did not excist outside london. But never fear, because our efficient council assured us that the legislation would be in place within 6 months. 7 (yes 7) years later they got the legislation, and could enforce the bus gate by use of cameras. But not surprisingly, due the incompetence of this council, they started dishing out fines for driving in a BUS LANE, not driving through a BUS GATE. That is the POINT, not that thousands of us have ignored the no motor vehicles sign. The council employ expensive lawyers to make sure that these schoolboy errors do not occur. I just wonder who will pay for all of this, the case is cut and dry. We all drove through a bus gate and got a ticket for driving through a bus lane. I did not drive through a bus lane so I am innocent of the offence that I have been charged with. Like it or not the fact in this case is that the council messed up again, (Cornmarket paving stones, Relaying the Station Square Bus Lane 3 times, cobbles in George St and Carfax relayed twice before being tarmaced over, The unenforceable 50 mph limit on the Eastern Bypass, the unenforceable 20 mph limit in East Oxford ETC) you would think that they would learn. But their arrogance in thinking that they can control all aspects of our lives, takes over and I think that they can see no wrong in anything that they do, maybe this will be the one that finally wakes them up. P.S. If by some freak of nature we have a bent judge and we lose, then although it will cost me 15 X £30 it has gained me far more in the business I was able to do in the time that was saved driving to long way. I just think of it in the same way as the London congestion charge. P.P.S. There is a precedent, Sheffield were ordered to pay back over a quarter of a mill a couple of years ago, and not sure but I think manchester may have had a problem too.
Pierre My wrote:No Pierre, its somebody who has read and MISunderstood the story. Which part of the judge will decide at a later date is not clear. Until then we don't know whether the council have been anything incorrectly or not. As for not being able to enforce it for 7 years, my recollection was that it was able to be enforced by the police but the Council took it on because it was understandably not a high priority for the Police. In fact I suspect the police could still enforce it whether the Council lose this or not because the "No Access" sign is still illegal to go through. Should they lose it I hope they pass the CCTV footage onto the Police so that you can be prosecuted under the correct legislation and the resultant points on your license. Your response is all that is wrong with this country, in that you knew you weren't supposed to go through there but because you thought you could get away with it you decided you had the right.phantom flan flinger wrote: if people understood the signage or not is not the point. The council fined people incorrectly for driving in a bus lane. It is not a bus lane because there is no signage to say it's a bus lane.At last somebody who has read and understood the story. Well done young man.
Pierre My, East Of Green Road says...
11:30am Mon 15 Mar 10
outlawselfinterest, says...
11:58am Fri 19 Mar 10
"I knew perfectly well that I am not allowed to drive my car past the bus only sign. But I think I've found a 'smart-a**e lawyer' way of evading the penalty, and I've gone on to do it again another 14 times after that. I'm completely selfish, will do what I want for myself, and don't care what anyone else thinks".
What a truly revolting man you are and I really hope you get you come uppance in the next world even if you contrive with some legal loophole to slime your way out it in this one.
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Sophia, Oxford says...
8:08am Wed 10 Mar 10